Matthew Mitchell: This is Matthew Mitchell in The School of Education. Today, I am with Ja'Nina Walker in the psychology department. Ja'Nina, before we get started talking about things, not everybody may know you. Can you tell people a bit about who you are? They know you're in the psychology department. They need probably to know less about your research, but just what kind of courses do you teach, all of that?
Ja'Nina Walker: Great. I teach research design, which is a course for all psychology majors where we examine the ways in which to produce and implement psychological research studies. I also teach African-American psychology and psychology of sexuality. Those are the main courses I teach and that I rotate. Of course, African-American psychology examines the experiences of African-Americans in the United States of America, how social inequality impacts their day-to-day functioning and psycho-sexuality examines the experiences of LGBT populations from a historical perspective and also currently examining what are the social constructs and social kind of positionality of LGBT populations that we currently see today.
Matthew: Fantastic. Thank you so much. The purpose of our conversation today is really to talk about a trend that you've been seeing or hearing about a little more recently, I think. I don't know all the details of it. I just know through some short emails between the two of us, but I think in terms of framing this, what we've done at the CTE is we have in our recording interviews about specific pedagogical techniques. Those have been really wonderful, but some other issues that impacts-- Well, there are other issues besides pedagogy that impact students.
One of those is their level of comfort in class, their level of, for lack of a better word, how welcomed they feel in a class. I think probably what we're talking about today more goes along that line. Could you tell us a little bit about what you've been noticing lately, that's raised a concern in your own mind?
Ja'Nina: After having conversations with a few LGBT students, there seems to be a lack of knowledge around the experiences of trans and gender-queer students on campus. I think that it's important for faculty to understand that these students exist and that these students need a particular type of support that might be a little different from their cisgender peers. When I say cisgender, I mean individuals whose biological sex and gender presentation align. I think that it's important for folks to acknowledge that many cisgender people don't ever even have to think about the constructs and the experiences that our trans and gender-queer students do have to experience.
I think that that's the first thing is knowing that they exist and knowing that they have had experiences where they don't feel safe in the classroom, where they have either before the class started told faculty member that they have a preferred name and a preferred pronoun, and the faculty member disregarding that preferred name and pronoun throughout the entire semester.
I think that that is disheartening, to me. It really impacts the mental health of our students, because, I believe, when students walk into a classroom, they at least expect that their faculty member is going to, one, impart them with knowledge, but two, ensure that they feel safe as they navigate course content, as they navigate sitting in class, whatever the situation may be. I think that when students express that they don't feel safe in the classroom, that's where I become quite concerned. I think that it's important that we consider how we can best support our transgender-queer or non-binary students.
Matthew: You're bringing up something that I was certainly unaware of. I want to explore that a little more. I know there are some faculty who actually don't learn the names of students. Now, everybody's being treated equally there, it's just you, but that's not typical for most faculties in most classes. I don't know what's the best wording here, but there's cases where people do things out of ignorance and there's cases where people do things not because they're ignorant, but because they just have some firmly held belief or something that they don't want to go in a certain direction.
What you're describing to me so far sounds like not an issue of ignorance. It almost sounds like an issue of, I don't know what label to put on it. That seems more upsetting because I remember when I first saw your name, I pronounced it one way, but it's not the correct way to pronounce it. All you had to do is tell me once, and now I know how to pronounce it. It's not like it's difficult at all.
I had ignorance. I would think a lot of faculty might have ignorance about a preferred name or preferred way to refer to someone. As long as they were clued in, they would be fine, but I find it a little more- I want to come back to the ignorance thing, but I find this second case a little more unsettling. Do you have-- I'm inferring from what you're saying that underneath all of this is an antipathy towards these types of students. Is that true or not? If it is true, it must show in other ways besides disregarding preferred name.
Ja'Nina: I mean, I think there's always that possibility. I think we see microaggressions, which are those [unintelligible 00:05:57] that, I think, Professor Flores talked about in one of the other interviews. I think that we see those microaggressions. Oftentimes, those come from well-intention people, and sometimes they don't. I think the bottom line is that whether they're intentional or not, is that it's this unconscious belief that people hold about particular groups of people.
I think that because the average United States citizen is not very aware of transgender-queer, non-binary, just individuals in general, that one, there is a lack of ignorance and two, if those identities do challenge their currently held beliefs, then yes, I mean, they may have these anti-trans or transphobic or gender-queer phobic thoughts.
I think that I want to give USF faculty the benefit of the doubt and hope that they are just on the side of not being well informed about the experiences of trans students, which, I think, is actually the bigger, probably the larger population. I think more people are actually just not aware. I think there are far fewer people. I can't even imagine who would be that anti-supportive of students, rather their experiences mirror or are completely against the belief system of the faculty.
I think that faculty have gathered enough knowledge and information throughout their academic careers to understand the importance of still supporting people if you don't have the same political or ideological alignment. I'm hoping that it's just a level of lack of knowledge that we can inform faculty up so that they are knowledgeable of the most effective ways to support students.
Matthew: Well, one that's good news, but now I want to explore some other things you're saying a little more in depth, because, I think, microaggressions are really hard to catch yourself. There's once in a while where I catch one that I've done, I go, "Oh my God," but mostly it's in some way being reflected back to you by what another person says or how they look or their facial expressions, something like that. As an example of a microaggression, I could- a typical microaggression I could shoot at you would be if I'm talking to you and I go, "Wow, you're so articulate."
Ja'Nina: That a great [unintelligible 00:08:30]
Matthew: No, go ahead.
Ja'Nina: That's a great ratio microaggression towards black Americans that you could see.
Matthew: Obviously, I'm not trying to be insulting. Yet, obviously, I am being insulting, but the intent is not there, but despite-- It's one of those classic cases. In a way, it doesn't matter what our- our intent matters to some degree, but the despite our intent it still has a negative impact. Now, I'm asking this from a place of ignorance because I may be as guilty as anyone. When we're talking about transgender and the students that you've seen have been negatively impacted, can you give some examples of what might be a kind of a microaggression, a well-meaning, but dumbass person like me might say?
Ja'Nina: I think a difficult question, particularly for this population. I think because they're not seen. I think that microaggressions are very easily spewed out, for a lack of better word, when the identity is very clearly physical. People make assumptions about people of color, might give microaggressions for that because they see it in a person's skin tone when they look at them. People might give microaggressions for gender if we think in a binary sense, male and female based off of what they have assumptions about what it is to be a man or what it is to be a woman. The thing that I think is problematic for the population that we're talking about are trans, non-binary, gender questions is that people don't realize that these students exist because they use-- As human beings, we have categorized gender along a binary. We've conflated sex, biological sex organs with gender social constructions around how societies view what should be maleness and what should be "femaleness."
I think that for our trans students, gender-queer students, that people don't realize that they exist because they're trying to place these social construction markers onto the students. You don't see as many necessarily trans microaggression. Do you see more microaggressions around sexual orientation? Less microaggressions around trans issues, you actually see more just blatant aggression towards these non-binary populations.
If I were to say that there was a microaggression, it would probably be somewhere along the lines of preferred pronouns or preferred names. Again, I think that that's the biggest issue that we're seeing now with students, or just the complete disregard for their identity or policing of their identity. When I say policing of identity, I mean, you look at a student or you look at a person and you say, "Okay, they have these markers. Maybe this person has breasts, maybe this person has short hair. Now, I'm going to make an assumption about who they are. They must be a woman because they have breasts, because that is the marker that we automatically assume for someone who is female."
I think that, when I think about microaggressions for trans or gender-queer populations, I think of someone saying, "Oh, you can't be a guy, you can't be a man, because you have breasts." These type of assumptions about what biological characteristics are then matched with what social constructs is the biggest problem, I think, that we see. This conflation of sex and gender and the ways in which in the United States, who are very binary in our thinking. We assume that everyone who is male will have these particular characteristics. Everyone who is female will have these particular characteristics.
I think when we're thinking of inclusivity for our LGBT students, we have to remove ourselves from that binary thinking. That binary thinking is problematic. Then, it doesn't allow for the visibility of our transgender-queer and non-binary students.
Matthew: That helps tremendously, that explanation. To follow up, as an instructor, I'm thinking about-- Partly where we started is you gave the example of students approaching faculty about preferred name, preferred pronoun, that kind of thing, and then, the faculty member either disregarding it, or something else. As a faculty member, overall, I would prefer to be proactive rather than reactive.
Based on what you're saying, something I do not do in my classes, but now I'm starting to think about this, and I don't know if it's the best approach, is it's really easy for me at the beginning of each semester to hand out something like an index card and say, "Just give me how you want me to call you, what your name is." I could ask him, "What's your preferred pronoun?" and maybe a couple of other things.
Would that be a decent way to be proactive? By the way, this impacts other students also who just have their own preferences on how they'd like to be called for different reasons.
Ja'Nina: Yes, I think that that is a great thing to do. I think that students would appreciate it because-- I will say this, the trans and gender-queer, non-binary students are very proactive also. Generally, what they do before the semester starts, they email all the professors and they say, "This is my preferred name, I'm enrolled in your class. This is my preferred pronoun.
Please let me know if you have any questions."
The students generally always send emails first. When they get to class, it is then the expectation that the faculty member will respect that request. I think that ways in which faculty can support students is doing exactly what you said, I do this in my classes on the first day of class. I ask them to go around, share their name, share their preferred pronoun, share why they're taking the class. It's just very general. It's what most faculty do.
Most faculty just don't ask the preferred pronoun. I just asked the preferred pronoun, and it's standard. My students know that when they come into my classes, that that's what's going to be asked. It allows me to then refer to students in a way that is respectful of their identities. I also hold students accountable for ensuring that they refer to their peers with the right pronouns.
What I do, I don't do the index card thing, but that's also a really good example is when they're going around, I just write down on a note, on a legal pad their name, their preferred pronoun and why they want to be in the class. I think that that helps because that's a reminder to me as well if there are any students who have preferred pronouns that maybe I'm not aware of. It helps the students as well to make sure that we provide a safe and inclusive space for all of our students.
Matthew: Well, I think it's great that many of these students are proactive themselves. They're doing that for really good reasons. I would rather model in the future being proactive as an instructor so that, at some point in time, students don't feel like they have to take the lead. Clearly, they feel like they have to take the lead now. They're doing great steps, but even that shouldn't happen- need to be the case.
I'm going to go back to the worry thing, because now what you're telling me is- because I didn't realize students were being proactive in this way. I know you may not know, and we're guessing a little bit, but what's your sense of what's happening when faculty disregard that proactive request, especially if it's made with something like email? You're not getting at a time where you're rushed, like in the middle of--
If somebody approaches me right after the end of a class, and there's a lot of people, I'm hitting bang, bang, bang, and then I'm off to another meeting, I could forget. When it's via email or an index card or something, I'm not going to forget. I'm wondering if people or maybe you think it's just disorganization on their part as faculty, and they don't prioritize remembering these facts, so they forget it or-- I don't know. Actually, I find what you're saying surprising, so I'm wondering what's going on there.
Ja'Nina: I think that most faculty just don't understand the importance. I don't think they understand how significant it is for them to support students by providing their preferred pronouns. I think that when we do not use the proper pronouns or the preferred names, we thus in return render students as invisible. I think that most faculty don't understand the importance, because, again, they probably look at a student, they look for certain markers and they say, "Well, you must be she, you must be he," and that's problematic because not all students are going to align with the social constructions around what we consider "he" or "she."
I think that that is the biggest issue. I think that faculty just wanting to be made aware and get comfortable with the idea that every semester you might have one or two students who, when you ask them, they don't prefer the pronoun that you assume that they are going to have.
I think that with pronouns, particularly within LGBT populations, it's not always also as easy as he or she. Some individuals prefer they, them pronouns. I think that some faculty are like, "That's not grammatically correct," which is also problematic. If we really think about grammar, if we think about gender, it's all socially constructed. I feel that if a student prefers they, them pronouns, that you can do something a little bit grammatically incorrect for one quick second to support that student.
Some students might also prefer zie, zer, which is a even more critical conscious, political statement against the binary thinking of he, her, she, him pronouns. I think that that is why some faculty might not understand what these words mean. I think, again, it just boils down to lack of knowledge, that knowing within LGBT populations there are some people who really have political stances against binary thinking, and it's a subversion.
It is a bold and political and important move for these individuals to make for them to assert, "I prefer they, them pronouns, who cares if it messes up grammar. I prefer zie, zim. I'm asking you to support that and to respect that." I can understand that for some people initially that that might be difficult. Even for me, to be open and transparent, the first time I heard zie, zim as a pronoun when I was like a graduate student, I was like, "Wait, what? What's that?" I understood the importance of naming. I think that for communities that have been marginalized, they're often times named by others, by the more dominant group. I believe that it is the least that we can do, is support students in the ways in which they prefer to name themselves. That is their capacity and ability to take autonomy over their experiences even if they are still marginalized by larger society.
Matthew: Fantastic. Part of what I'm reflecting on as you talk is, most of us are very busy, and we do make certain unconscious decisions and judgements at a level which, unless we really worked on it consciously, they just unconsciously go [unintelligible 00:20:51]. We're not even aware of it. I think some things we're much more aware of now, but I think this is a whole issue that probably most people don't think about, or don't think about very deeply.
Yet, if we are aware about of it, that is, if someone is actually listening to this interview or something similar, that it may take time because these are really snap judgements about gender still, looking at somebody. I think even though it may take time, it's relatively easy for most faculty to really adjust. It's just being aware of it, and then kind of taking some conscious steps that are correct for them to do that.
Well, thank you so much. What I've tried to do is ask you the best questions I knew how in the moment. To be fair, we may not have touched upon something that actually is pretty important and has just been ignored so far. Are there any other issues kind of around this whole area that you'd like to bring up?
Ja'Nina: I think we've pretty much hit on everything. I mean, the main thing for me that I really wanted to reiterate to faculty is that these students exist, and that it is our responsibility to support them, and that if we really want to support them, we have to move away from this binary thinking that we currently have in the United States of America, and that we, like you said, can be proactive in our ability to support these students.
I think that we can very simply ask for preferred pronouns on the first day of class. Another thing that we do very unconsciously is we always say, "Hey, you guys." We always default.
Matthew: I do that.
Ja'Nina: I think everyone does it. We always default to patriarchy in some way, that everyone is maleness in this space because education is a space for men. I think that even if we can remove ourselves from that type of rhetoric, as even just a starting point, to help move towards understanding that binary thinking around gender is one, problematic, and two, isolates certain students to where they don't feel safe in the classroom, and that we try to do our best to challenge ourselves to think critically around gender. I think that faculty are very capable of doing this.
I think that us having this conversation will bring it to the forefront of their minds. I'm always willing to talk with faculty about these issues, about best practices to support students. There's always books, there's always readings. Gender Trouble by Judith Butler is a great starting point. I think people could also read Redefining Realness by Janet Mock, which is a really quick read. There's just so many options out there to educate yourself about how to support our non-binary students.
Matthew: Fantastic. What I will do is when I put this interview up, I will provide links to those two books, so people can go easily see them. I'm wondering if you have, for people who are really busy, who actually don't have the time to even read and easy to read book, if you have even one to three articles that people could read and you could send to me. That would be really helpful, then I can just provide those download links.
Ja'Nina: I can do that.
Matthew: Thank you so much for the graciousness of your time. I really, really appreciate it.
Ja'Nina: Thank you.
[00:24:21] [END OF AUDIO]


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